Comments on: ‘Lioness’ – There’s No Telling

By: allisoni

allisoni — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 12:01:14 +0000

Hey Jett, Lioness was the first screening of our ITVS Community Cinema season last year at the downtown library, just a few weeks before it aired on PBS. We had a panel discussion afterward with women veterans and a psychologist who works with women veterans (many of whom are raped while in the military – could someone do a film about that?). About 50 cities across the country screened the film as part of this series and had similar discussions with the military community. It's one of my favorites of our offerings and one of the best profiles of a soldier I've seen (Shannon specifically). Too bad we didn't get the word to you! You could've discussed it with a crowd. We've had a couple of military related films in the series, and it's interesting how censored veterans seem to feel on a panel. They might be candid in a phone conversation but tend to present a cheery picture of military life when they're on stage with a microphone. No surprise I guess.

By the way, all the women vets I talked to wanted to go into combat, no question, because they believe in their mission and do not see themselves as particularly delicate. Fighting a war is not just about brawn, after all. In the film, no one is naively shocked that she got what she asked for. The women simply wanted proper training and recognition for their work.

By: allisoni

allisoni — Wed, 16 Dec 2009 05:01:14 +0000

By: John Muth

John Muth — Sun, 29 Nov 2009 19:53:59 +0000

I got to see Lioness today, and thought that it was a pretty touching study of these soldiers, and how being the first wave of what's surely likely to become a more common-place occurrence – of women in more combat roles.

The interesting thing about the movie is how it's just trying to get awareness that with the ways wars are fought now, it's not fair to any of the soldiers to have certain people sidelined, in order to perpetrate antiquated ideals. As a number of people mention in the movie, it's not even about actually sending women out into active combat roles, as much as not having them fully trained to defend themselves and their fellow soldiers, in case of combat.

Having only a tangential relationships with the military (I enlisted in the Marines – for the hopeful college assistance – but wound up blowing out my knee and was discharged 2/3 into training), I can tell you that the women enlisting, and already in the military are just as able – if not in some cases, more-so – than any man.

But, what the movie points out pretty well, with the interviews with the soldiers as well as their families, that have also served – is that it doesn't matter what your gender is, risking your life and taking someone else's effects you just the same and stays with you forever.

By: Phil

Phil — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 14:10:03 +0000

I definitely agree with that viewpoint. You're right, in that my first reaction is just what you stated – focusing on the film's message (whatever it is, I have yet to see it) of simply “women in the military” – when I'm sure if I watched, I'd be more intrigued by the message from the women themselves.

In fact, I think in a previous post of Jett's about the portrayal of women and sexuality in cinema, you and I were on the same page (I think it was you?).

I didn't think you weren't being fair-minded, I just thought you should counter with the points you just made.

By: Ana

Ana — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:37:32 +0000

Thanks for accepting my apology Stanley and I actually agree with you that there are many issues in military life, for both men and women that should be addressed. I can tell that you are open to the discussion and, even though it's an emotional topic, I shouldn't make the atmosphere seem so minfield-like :).

By: Ana

Ana — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:26:54 +0000

Hi Phil, I appreciate your comment and you're right, I didn't really say anything of substance with my first post, which was completely counter-productive. Thanks for being open to hearing more :). I guess I actually wish we could steer the debate away from whether or not women should be in the military, or whether or not women are requesting special treatment, toward a pure acceptance of the fact that women are there and they have a story to tell. We will never go back to an era where women are not in the military and more and more often women will be in combat. I guess I just want to give them the stage and not have to stumble first over whether or not it's right/acceptable for them to be there. I apologize again for not being more fair-minded in my first post.

By: StanleyRumm

StanleyRumm — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 07:02:47 +0000

Thanks Ana. I didn't mean to cause offence and to be honest I don't think my remarks should be seen as offensive. I'm all for casting light on women in the military, but as we've seen, it appears to be an area where men must thread very carefully. One step in the wrong direction and kaboom.
It's not too long ago when there were no women -or very few- in the military. I remember women fighting for the right to join the ranks, etc. and I had difficulties with that too -for much the same reasons as you've been giving... women should be treated differently in some ways. Not because of any philosophical reasons, but for physical ones more than anything else. We're built differently.

...I can see already I'm entering another minefield... :)

Anyway, my point is, I'm all for throwing light on the subject of women in the military/ how they are treated/ how they should be treated. I'm also all in favour of the same for men. The military is not known for its emotional engagement with its personnel, if women help in that regard perhaps it's a good thing. Then again, maybe that detachment is an essential ingredient. I wouldn't purport to know.

I'm sure at least some of the above can be read in a manner other than the way intended, but either way -I'm not the enemy. Neither is Phil. I found c_johnson's reply very funny and would almost certainly help draw attention to the film -perhaps not what anyone would expect, but surely there's no point in attracting _only_ those people who already see it as "a worthy cause"?

Overall, I still don't see how/if Lioness addresses anything I've said so it remains a bit of a block for me. Fair enough, I accept women should be allowed into the military. I realise this causes particular problems for women. I wouldn't wouldn't wish those problems on anyone -male or female. Having fought so hard for this, it's hard to see what's to validly complain about when it's granted.

...*BUT* I do agree (as I've said before) -it is something I *would* complain about if I was a woman. I would not want to go into combat and I would expect the military not to send me. If I was thinking rationally however, I wouldn't have much hope in my cause being given any special attention.

...Damn, I thought I was doing ok there for a while, but I realise I died in the minefield a quarter-ways through and I spent my first moments of eternity typing my final thoughts. :(

By: Phil

Phil — Fri, 20 Nov 2009 01:17:23 +0000

But if you don't offer any discussion or viewpoint, how will we know your opinion?

So far it doesn't seem like you have, only expressed displeasure in Stanley's (and I presume my) opinion -

I would love to hear your thoughts on this topic (and I hope this isn't coming across as sarcastic because it is not - I know you can't always read context into plain text).

You will not offend me!

By: Ana

Ana — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:49:54 +0000

Stanley, I genuinely apologize. You are right, my remark was rude and curt. You are without question entitled to your opinion. I will try to explain my emotional reaction. The discussion of women in the military and women's representation in the world of film in general, is very uncommon. Even on this progressive film podcast, films featuring women in any context with serious and complex roles are rarely brought up. I was pleased to see that Jett had dedicated a whole post to such a film. I was hoping that such a post would invite discussion from the viewpoint of those less often given a voice in the majority opinion. I understand though that my emotional response was not productive and I truly apologize for cutting off the conversation.

By: Jett Loe

Jett Loe — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 21:35:03 +0000

I appreciate this is an intense topic for so many reasons but let's keep everything civil here folks, (I'm talkin' to all yall - myself included) :)

If i could I'd send everybody a copy of 'Lioness' so we could talk about the film!

(Remember it is available on iTunes for a tenner, and on Netflix as well)